Posted in: Comics, Comics Publishers, Current News, Marvel Comics, X-Men | Tagged: len wein, roy thomas, wolverine

Marvel Now Crediting Roy Thomas As Co-Creator Of Wolverine

Wolverine was created for Incredible Hulk #180 by writer Len Wein, designed by John Romita Sr, and drawn by Herb Trimpe back in 1974...

Wolverine was created for Incredible Hulk #180 by writer Len Wein, designed by John Romita Sr, and drawn by Herb Trimpe back in 1974, before the character was picked up by Wein for Giant-Size X-Men #1. But it seems that this is changing. Former Marvel Comics joint EIC, DC Comics Senior Editor and current Webtoon editor Bobbie Chase has posted to Facebook that;

"Recently my friend and Len Wein's widow, Christine Valada, got a call from Marvel executive David Bogart, informing her that in the upcoming Wolverine & Deadpool movie (coming out this July), Roy Thomas will now be credited as the co-creator with Len Wein and John Romita Sr., and David said it's a done deal. I was standing in Christine's kitchen this past Sunday as she told me about the phone call. Of course Christine is seriously concerned about Len's legacy. Len was profoundly important to the comic book industry, and that legacy is being changed for the worse, six years after his death."

Roy Thomas was then Editor-In-Chief at Marvel, but such contributions are not normally considered in the creator credits stakes. And she, with the help of her husband Craig and their friend Carr D'Angelo have been doing some digging.

"Roy and his manager John Cimino submitted a piece to CBR for their online publication, which they published on Feb 9, 2019. (It looks like the "article" submitted to CBR was a piece JC wrote on his blog early in 2018, only a few months after Len died. It's entitled Weapon X-plained: Wolverine Co-Creator Reveals the Truth Behind His Origin,  It might be worth noting this was done four years after Herb died, two years after Len died, and three months after Stan died. In this piece Roy finally "uncovers" the real story of Wolverine's origin, in which he says he co-created the character. As Roy says in that article, he suggested the name and asked that the character be Canadian – but is that creator-ship? Carr said he spoke with Christine about the article when it came out, but she wasn't concerned at the time. She was grieving.

"Even if Roy could have contributed as much to the character as Len – should he get the credit? Does contributing a name and a country of origin mean he deserves a percentage of the creator equity, when he was on staff at the company? Does Marvel now deserve a split, as they would then be co-creators, having hired the editor now taking credit? Marvel is the character's owner, in this particular case and in most cases, 100%. Character equity in no way implies that creators own any part of a character.

"At the time of Wolverine's creation in 1974, Roy Thomas was then Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics, a role I once held, although not quite so significantly. Roy was only the second EIC Marvel ever had, having taken over for Stan the Man Lee himself. So one might say it was in his capacity as an editor that he suggested to writer Len the name Wolverine, and then spectated as Len created the character description, back story, powers, speaking mannerisms and, along with artist John Romita Sr created his look. Then my old pal Herb Trimpe brought Wolverine to life, with body language and physical mannerisms, starting in Hulk #180.

"I'm not at all implying Roy didn't contribute to Wolverine's creation, although we'll never know how greatly he deserved it, especially when this article in CBR was published a little over a year after Len's death. Does Roy, having done all of this as Editor-in-Chief, have any contractual claim to the character, or just bragging rights? Had I been involved in the same way with the creation of any characters back in my days as either editor or EIC, it would most certainly have not netted me any credit, nor would I have wanted any. Working with creators is part of the job of being a Marvel employee. "It's not like these characters are being co-created by Roy; it's like they're being created by Marvel," Carr said as we were digging incredulously through doctored online entries, across Wikipedia and more.

"A side note from Carr: "I looked up Wiki for the Punisher, and apparently Stan Lee takes credit for replacing Gerry's name The Assassin (inspired by Executioner) with The Punisher (apparently Galactus had robots called Punishers in Fantastic Four #49). But even Stan never took credit for co-creating the Punisher – because editing/developing/guiding is the job of the Editor."

"Also from Carr: "There's another piece that is interesting because it points out that Roy's "contribution" of nationality had already been pitched by a fan in FOOM [Marvel's fan magazine, "Friends of Ol' Marvel"]. And Dave Cockrum had claims that his character presentations/designs that led to the New X-Men included a Wolverine character. (Always presumed to be based on some of his Legion ideas such as the new costume he planned for Timber Wolf, which he did get Wolverine into for his last issue–107?–with the LSH-inspired Imperial Guard.):

"Basically, the point is that a name and nationality doesn't mean you created a character. If that was so, we all have lists of thousands of characters/names we created in our files. So now, besides "Who Created Wolverine?," I have a new question: "Can Len Wein, John Romita Sr and MARVEL have created Wolverine?"

"Here's a TIMELINE of just a few key Wolverine changes:

• February 26, 2024 David Bogart called Christine Valada to tell her about the irrevocable change, making Roy co-creator on the next Wolverine movie.
• March 4, 2024: Len Wein's wikipedia page changes so that Roy Thomas appears as co-creator: "Wein co-created Wolverine with Roy Thomas, and artist John Romita Sr. during his run on The Incredible Hulk."
• March 16, 2024: The following was added to Roy Thomas's Wikipedia page: "Among the characters he co-created are Wolverine, Vision, Doc Samson, Carol Danvers, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Ultra, Yellowjacket, Defenders, Man-Thing, Ron Sonja, Morbius, Ghost Rider, Squadron Supreme, Invaders, Black Knight (Dawn Whitman), Nighthawk, Havoc, Banshee, Sunfire, Thunder, Arkon, Killraven, Wendell Vaughn, Red Wolf, Red Guardian, Daimon Hellstrom, Brother Voodoo and Valkyrie."
• March 19, 2024: Wolverine Wikipedia change is made: Created by: Roy Thomas, Len Wein, John Romita Sr. "He was created by Marvel editor-in-chief Roy Thomas, writer Len Wein, and Marvel art director John Romita Sr."

Since then it seems that the Wikipedia page has been bumped further, now making Roy Thomas the lead creator, saying "He was created by Marvel editor-in-chief Roy Thomas,[2] writer Len Wein,[3] and Marvel art director John Romita Sr. Romita designed the character's costume, but the character was first drawn for publication by Herb Trimpe."

Wikipedia links to an article in the Boston Globe from 2017 for this claim, about one twelve-year-old Bryn Cimino which says "Cimino, an eighth-grader at Carlisle Public School, had her artwork chosen to appear in the November issue of Alter Ego magazine, a comic fan magazine edited by Roy Thomas, the first successor to Stan Lee as editor in chief of Marvel Magazine in 1972, and the co-creator of many beloved superheroes, including Wolverine and Iron Fist." Which just states that her father John Cimino "works as a promoter and agent for writers and artists, including Thomas." It's a PR puff piece of an article, and the creator claim should probably be read in that context.

The Wikipedia article seems to be going back and forth on this, with editor "Jellyfish" stating "Even if Roy Thomas requested the creation of a character named "Wolverine" he did NOT co-create the character that millions of fans love to this day. That work was started by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum and continued by legions of creators over the decades since." But the addition began earlier,  in November 2017, and was batted around by editors until the Boston Globe article ran and was cited as evidence. Chase continues;

"Any thoughts, people? I'm no Marvel historian, and have never claimed to be. Carr, Craig and I were wracking our brains Sunday night trying to figure out who else might have been around at the time who would know the answer to all of our questions. Please, weigh in to this discussion, and If I'm way off base, tell me so. In which case, I'll be taking credit for Danny Ketch, Ghost Rider. Once writer Howard Mackie and artist Javier Saltares are dead, of course. And maybe after my former assistant editor Christian Cooper's death as well, for good measure."

Man,  it is such a shame that Bob Beerbohm died before this all kicked off. My thoughts are that this will be the work of John Cimino, Roy Thomas' manager, understandably trying to bulk up his reputation and legacy. Not for the first time. In a 2021 post he wrote;

"What most people don't realize is that when Roy Thomas thought up the character Wolverine for INCREDIBLE HULK #180 (1974) to get more Canadian readers, fellow co-creator Len Wein wanted Wolverine's famous claws (which Johnny Romita designed) to be made out of Adamantium. And who created that unbreakable Marvel metal? Well, our boy Roy of course a few years earlier in AVENGERS #66 (1969)."

Bleeding Cool has been happy to run such from him in the past, and probably will do in the future. We didn't run the Wolverine story though.

Christine Valada replied "Thank you, Bobbie. I reached out to Glynis [Len Wein's first wife]. She's as surprised by what has been done as I am. She was there and only remembers Len saying what I remember: Canadian accent because Len had been doing accents in Brother Voodoo (most assuredly NOT created by Roy Thomas) and the name Wolverine, which other sources suggest Roy got from a fan submission. Len's written and oral descriptions of how the character came about differ substantially from Roy's self-aggrandizement and did not change in all the time I knew him or in the time Glynis knew him."

Jason Liebig replied "I mean, if Roy was EIC at the time, it's not really in the realm of traditional creator crediting to give him that credit. And as you've plainly stated, it opens a GIGANTIC can of worms re: editors. No one can take anything away from Roy Thomas as writer or editor or contributor to the robust world of comic books but this seems deeply problematic. Giving this claim credibility should fairly introduce a litany of similar arguments by editors and staffers (and later creators who might have expanded a character) that they have earned a slot on the "created by" masthead. I don't know this John Cimino personally but he's also the guy who came up with a serpentine explanation that endeavors to prove that Ben Cooper costumes actually created Spider-Man, rather than Lee and Ditko. It's novel and cute, but so imaginatively speculative as to not deserve legitimate discourse. It's a conspiracy at best. We live in a world where if you repeat a falsehood long enough, it starts to be believed. And if you can get it into Wikipedia, suddenly it's an attributable fact that gets picked up by more reputable journalists and suddenly fantasy is treated as reality."

Yeah, we ran the Ben Cooper thing because it was fun, not because it might change Marvel Comics' credits.

Mark Waid adds "Roy gets some minor bragging rights and that's it, full-stop, no argument. He deserves zero financial equity, zero, because he was a paid staffer at the time, and brainstorming and guidance like this is AN EDITOR'S FUCKING JOB. Roy knows this, but he's turned into a ghoul late in life, snapping up "co-creator" credits as soon as all other involved parties are dead and no longer able to contest his claims. (See also: Gary Friedrich.) It's pathetic and ironic that, in scrambling for as much credit as he can possibly find, Roy's guaranteeing that his legacy will be all about stolen valor."

Andy Mangels added "I've been stunned watching this whole thing happen, thinking that this credit-grabbing by Roy is at best being mishandled. It seems it's not at best though, it's at worst. I've always admired and respected Roy for what he HAS done in comics, and continues to do with Alter Ego as a historian. But this move absolutely tarnishes his legacy, and may do so in a way that NOT claiming credit will eventually seem as a far better move."

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