Posted in: Comics, Comics Publishers, Current News, Marvel Comics, X-Men | Tagged: mark waid, neil gaiman, roy thomas, tom brevoort, wolverine

Tom Brevoort Vs David Bogart On Roy Thomas And Wolverine

Former Marvel EIC Roy Thomas has been claiming co-creator credit of Wolverine, and Marvel is making the change for Deadpool & Wolverine.

Yesterday, Bleeding Cool reported former Marvel EIC Bobbie Chase's Facebook post regarding the creation of Wolverine. Former Marvel EIC Roy Thomas was editor of The Incredible Hulk at the time that Wolverine was created. And it seems that, encouraged by his manager John Cimino, has been claiming co-creator credit of Wolverine, alongside Len Wein, and John Romita Sr for some time, against standard industry practice. But now it has gone official and Marvel Comics is making the change for the credits of the upcoming Deadpool & Wolverine movie. And this has not gone down well. Chase wrote;

"Recently my friend and Len Wein's widow, Christine Valada, got a call from Marvel executive David Bogart, informing her that in the upcoming Wolverine & Deadpool movie (coming out this July), Roy Thomas will now be credited as the co-creator with Len Wein and John Romita Sr., and David said it's a done deal. I was standing in Christine's kitchen this past Sunday as she told me about the phone call. Of course Christine is seriously concerned about Len's legacy. Len was profoundly important to the comic book industry, and that legacy is being changed for the worse, six years after his death."

It is also considered by some to affect the share of financial payments made over the "created by" credits for the upcoming movie Deadpool & Wolverine, and other media exploitation. So that Len Wein's estate will get less, and Roy Thomas will now get more. I haven't been made a party to the details of those days, however. But Valada seems to be more concerend over a dilution of Len Wein's credit, which also includes co-creation of Swamp Thing, Nightcrawler, Storm, and Colossus and being the initial editor of Watchmen.

David Bogart is Senior Vice President of Operations & Procurement, Publishing at Marvel Entertainment. And also the guy who got me my first paying gig as a gossip columnist in comics, back in the day, edited by now-Image Comics publisher Eric Stephenson. For all of four weeks until Mark Waid got me cancelled. But that was a long time ago.

But in a Facebook thread concerning this issue started by Mark Waid, Tom Brevoort, Marvel Executive Editor Senior Vice President of Publishing of Marvel Comics, seems to take an opposing stance to Bogart, posting "Creators get the credit, editors get the blame. That is the compact of the job, and those who cannot abide by it do dishonor to our profession. Don Draper had the right of it: "That's what the money is for!""

So naturally, Bleeding Cool is going to frame this as some inter-company division at Marvel Comics, over this issue. Though Christine Valada stated "David is lovely. This is above his pay grade."

This was all in reply to Mark Waid stating "A rule in comics: Staff editors don't get to claim a co-creator credit on characters their writers and artists create for them. Throwing out suggestions and brainstorming is part of the editor's job. Change my mind. I'm kidding. You'll never change my mind on this." with Tom also replying "This is absolutely correct." Other comments included the following;

Christine Valada: Len Wein was trained as an artist & his description of the design was he sat down with John and they developed the look together based on what Len had learned in researching wolverines. Herb then used the design in the Hulk books. Then Dave Cockrum did a redesign. Also, Len was paid for his Marvel writing as a freelancer. I have his journal, which notes what he wrote, for what companies, the artists, payment, publication dates and if he worked with another writer. The only time he lists Roy Thomas as a co-writer was for an Avengers's story.

Colleen Doran: Had a couple of editors way overstep their bounds, and try to horn themselves in as co-creators. Aside from the ethical boundaries issues, coercive control, and conflict of interest, it's just generally shitty.

Mike Marts: As a comics editor for 30 years, I 100% agree. We are coaches and shepherds, we are never owners.

Mike Hansen: Absolutely. I didn't create SpyBoy at Dark Horse, even though I helped come up with the concept. Peter David and Pop Mhan's development and execution of the concept makes them the creators, period.

Gregory Wright: Yes. I helped develop characters, storylines, crossovers, came up with new costumes, character names…and handed stuff over to creators who did all the work in the comic. It was just part of my job that I was paid to do. At the same time in my OFF STAFF hours I created and wrote characters that I DID get creator credit and money for because it was separate from my staff job. I also colored many covers and parts of interiors as a STAFFER so I did not get paid for this work. And it was fair and it was my own choice to do it.

While the Roy Thomas discussion has been playing out elsewhere, with Rob Liefeld threatening his own explosion on this matter to come.

Rob Liefeld: "Folks, let me tell you that Christine Valada, the widow of the late, great, Len Wein, contacted me last Monday to share the Wolverine news. I was immediately distraught and terribly upset. I have been simmering ever since. I have received hundreds of requests in the last 24 hours to weigh in on this matter and I will. Believe me it's coming. I just need more time to settle."

Dan Jurgens: Unconscionable decision. There is no way that editors should be credited as creators. This unjust decision is made worse by the fact that Len is no longer here to counter the argument or make a case for himself.

And on Blue Sky, with Neil Gaiman linking to our original Roy Thomas article,

Neil Gaiman: I picked a civilian name for Poison Ivy and gave her a new origin. That doesn't mean I'm her co-creator (that's Bob Kanigher and Carmine Infantino). Um.

As well as previous interviews being pored over, such as this by Peter Sanderson for the X-Men Companion in 1982;

THOMAS: The only other thing I suggested to him, over lunch, was that I thought it was time we had a Canadian hero. There was talk about names like Captain Canuck, Cap-tain Canada, things of that sort, and I suggested that since we had a Canadian market and I felt guilty about not having more Canadian characters in the comics, The X-Men should have a character that I suggested be called the Wolverine because that animal inhabits Canada as well as the Northern United States and would be familiar to both. He could be a Canadian and be very fierce. I was thinking of someone much like what evolved, a very fierce character worth his weight in wildcats, that kind of thing, a little like Wildcat or Atom, only with more power.
SANDERSON: Cockrum says he had come up with a Wolverine character before that and told you about it.
THOMAS: It very well could have been. On the other hand I don't have any conscious memory of his having done that. And of course it doesn't take much brains for either of us to come up with a name like Wolverine anyway. Animal characters are a big thing. Dave may have done that. On the other hand, it's like when I invented the Banshee. I got an angry letter from a kid who said he'd once sent in a letter to me, Stan, or somebody else suggesting a character called the Banshee. And of course I thought it was just ridiculous [laughter] because names like "Wolverine" or "Banshee" are just names. A name like Captain Marvel is a made-up name, maybe, but all the others—Superman, Batman—they're all just grabbed from somewhere.

And with Dave Cockrum, who drew Wolverine into X-Men.

SANDERSON: How about Wolverine? Did you have anything to do with his creation?
COCKRUM: No, but I resented his existence for a long time because I had come up with a Wolverine and shown it to Roy before this Wolverine. I had a series of characters I suggested could be X-Men…How should I put this? I did a montage piece of art with a lot of brand-new characters on it, none of whom was really iden tified as anything. One of them wound up later being used as Tyr in the Legion of Super-Heroes, the guy with the gun on his hand. But anyhow, two of them were a brother and sister. She was a vampire who, by one method or another, was going to try to keep it under control, possibly just bite people once and leave them alone, and not kill them off. He was a vulpine type; animalistic, bestial, feral, whom I called Wolverine.
SANDERSON: Complete with claws?
COCKRUM: No, he didn't have claws. But he had fangs and he was a nasty son of a bitch. He had almost the same haircut that Wolverine has now. In the in-terim, somewhere along the line, Roy suggested to Len, "How about a Canadian mutant called Wolverine?" I assumed Roy just forgot that I showed him my Wolverine. I was kind of miffed about the whole thing, but it seemed kind of pointless to carry it on. I never did like Wolverine for a long time…

And with Len Wein:

SANDERSON: Now, before the new X-Men series began, you already created Wolverine. Was that done with the intention of putting him in the book later?
WEIN: Mm-hm. If it came to be. I figured I'd cover myself on the off chance we did do a new book, and we needed other characters. Actually, the name "Wolverine" was Roy's suggestion: he suggested "Do a character called Wolverine," gave him to me to create for the Hulk, and most of the rest of the details as to who and what he was were my own. So I decided to make him a teen-age mutant, to be one of the new X-Men if it came to pass.

Will there be a campaign within Marvel to get it changed back? Will John Cimino and Roy Thomas come out swinging? If so, expect it in Roy's own magazine, Alter-Ego #194, out in July… and it has Wolverine on the cover with Roy too. Yeah, this is going to be a thing.

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