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Roy Thomas Says His Wolverine Creator Credit Should Have Come First

Roy Thomas says his credit at the end of Deadpool & Wolverine should have come before Len Wein, John Romita Sr and Herb Trimpe

Roy Thomas has told The Hollywood Reporter that his controversial Wolverine creator credit, at the end of Deadpool & Wolverine, should have come first, ahead of Len Wein, John Romita Sr, and Herb Trimpe. Until this year, he had only received "special thanks" credits for the creation of Wolverine rather than full creator credit. But it seems the credit from the movie, incredibly controversial in and of itself, wasn't enough. In an article written by Roy Thomas for THR, he says:

"I'm particularly grateful to Marvel Entertainment for seeing the virtue of my position of some months ago that, building on the less formalized credits in 2017's Logan, Len Wein, John Romita, and I all deserved official "co-creator" status on Deadpool & Wolverine, just as the two co-creators of Deadpool have enjoyed, Oh, sure, I strongly feel my name should have come first, not last, in the Wolverine grouping, since the Wolverine character was my concept on which Len and the others built … but hey, being listed last never hurt Oliver Hardy, Lou Costello, Jerry Lewis, or Paul McCartney, right? (Or Jack Kirby as in "Simon and" and "Lee and," come to that.)"

Bleeding Cool was the first to confirm the full comic book creator credits from the Deadpool & Wolverine movie. And at the top, they read "Deadpool created by Rob Liefeld and Fabian Nicieza. Wolverine created by Len Wein, John Romita Sr, Herb Trimpe, and Roy Thomas."

In justification for that belief, the article continues, with Roy credited as saying;

"The four of us made a good team on that book, with myself as editor-in-chief quite content to let Len, John, and Herb handle things once I gave out general marching orders. It's a shame and pity there's been so much ill-considered ill will generated in recent months since Marvel decided to give me the official co-creator status that I've never for one moment doubted that I (just like Herb) deserved… the more so since my side of the creation story has been a part of the public record since articles printed in 1982 and 1999."

He's not even a big fan of Deadpool, saying;

" I've never been much of a fan of the Deadpool franchise (still haven't seen Deadpool 2, almost alone among Marvel-related movies), and I have real trouble taking a story seriously once it starts breaking through the fourth wall; even so, I'm overjoyed that nearly half a billion dollars' worth of paying customers felt positively enough toward the film over the past weekend to go see it."

The previous controversy over who created Wolverine

The character of Wolverine was created for Incredible Hulk #180 by writer Len Wein, designed by John Romita Sr, and drawn by Herb Trimpe back in 1974, before the character was picked up by Len Wein for Giant-Size X-Men #1, joining the team that would make the character famous. But it seems that this is changing. Former Marvel Comics EIC, DC Comics Senior Editor and currently writing a biography about her time at Marvel, Bobbie Chase has posted to Facebook that;

"Recently my friend and Len Wein's widow, Christine Valada, got a call from Marvel executive David Bogart, informing her that in the upcoming Wolverine & Deadpool movie (coming out this July), Roy Thomas will now be credited as the co-creator with Len Wein and John Romita Sr., and David said it's a done deal. I was standing in Christine's kitchen this past Sunday as she told me about the phone call. Of course Christine is seriously concerned about Len's legacy. Len was profoundly important to the comic book industry, and that legacy is being changed for the worse, six years after his death."

It is also considered by some to affect the share of financial payments made over the "created by" credits for the upcoming movie Deadpool & Wolverine, and other media exploitation. So Len Wein's estate will get less, and Roy Thomas will now get more. I haven't been made a party to the details of those days, however. But Valada seems to be more concerned over a dilution of Len Wein's credit, which also includes the co-creation of Swamp Thing, Nightcrawler, Storm, and Colossus and being the initial editor of Watchmen.

David Bogart is Senior Vice President of Operations & Procurement, Publishing at Marvel Entertainment.  A Facebook thread concerning this issue was started by Mark Waid where he stated "A rule in comics: Staff editors don't get to claim a co-creator credit on characters their writers and artists create for them. Throwing out suggestions and brainstorming is part of the editor's job. Change my mind. I'm kidding. You'll never change my mind on this."

Tom Brevoort, Marvel Executive Editor and Senior Vice President of Publishing of Marvel Comics, took an opposing stance to Bogart, posting, "This is absolutely correct… Creators get the credit, editors get the blame. That is the compact of the job, and those who cannot abide by it do dishonor to our profession. Don Draper had the right of it: "That's what the money is for!"" Christine Valada stated "David is lovely. This is above his pay grade."

Christine Valada also stated "Len Wein was trained as an artist & his description of the design was he sat down with John and they developed the look together based on what Len had learned in researching wolverines. Herb then used the design in the Hulk books. Then Dave Cockrum did a redesign. Also, Len was paid for his Marvel writing as a freelancer. I have his journal, which notes what he wrote, for what companies, the artists, payment, publication dates and if he worked with another writer. The only time he lists Roy Thomas as a co-writer was for an Avengers's story."

Rob Liefeld who is credited as the co-creator of Deadpool in the same credits wrote "Folks, let me tell you that Christine Valada, the widow of the late, great, Len Wein, contacted me last Monday to share the Wolverine news. I was immediately distraught and terribly upset. I have been simmering ever since."

Previous interviews with Roy Thomas and others have been brought to light

There has been plenty of commentary about this issue, some informed, some less so. Previous interviews being pored over, such as this by Peter Sanderson for the X-Men Companion in 1982;

THOMAS: The only other thing I suggested to him, over lunch, was that I thought it was time we had a Canadian hero. There was talk about names like Captain Canuck, Cap-tain Canada, things of that sort, and I suggested that since we had a Canadian market and I felt guilty about not having more Canadian characters in the comics, The X-Men should have a character that I suggested be called the Wolverine because that animal inhabits Canada as well as the Northern United States and would be familiar to both. He could be a Canadian and be very fierce. I was thinking of someone much like what evolved, a very fierce character worth his weight in wildcats, that kind of thing, a little like Wildcat or Atom, only with more power.
SANDERSON: Cockrum says he had come up with a Wolverine character before that and told you about it.
THOMAS: It very well could have been. On the other hand I don't have any conscious memory of his having done that. And of course it doesn't take much brains for either of us to come up with a name like Wolverine anyway. Animal characters are a big thing. Dave may have done that. On the other hand, it's like when I invented the Banshee. I got an angry letter from a kid who said he'd once sent in a letter to me, Stan, or somebody else suggesting a character called the Banshee. And of course I thought it was just ridiculous [laughter] because names like "Wolverine" or "Banshee" are just names. A name like Captain Marvel is a made-up name, maybe, but all the others—Superman, Batman—they're all just grabbed from somewhere.

And with Dave Cockrum, who drew Wolverine into X-Men.

SANDERSON: How about Wolverine? Did you have anything to do with his creation?
COCKRUM: No, but I resented his existence for a long time because I had come up with a Wolverine and shown it to Roy before this Wolverine. I had a series of characters I suggested could be X-Men…How should I put this? I did a montage piece of art with a lot of brand-new characters on it, none of whom was really iden tified as anything. One of them wound up later being used as Tyr in the Legion of Super-Heroes, the guy with the gun on his hand. But anyhow, two of them were a brother and sister. She was a vampire who, by one method or another, was going to try to keep it under control, possibly just bite people once and leave them alone, and not kill them off. He was a vulpine type; animalistic, bestial, feral, whom I called Wolverine.
SANDERSON: Complete with claws?
COCKRUM: No, he didn't have claws. But he had fangs and he was a nasty son of a bitch. He had almost the same haircut that Wolverine has now. In the in-terim, somewhere along the line, Roy suggested to Len, "How about a Canadian mutant called Wolverine?" I assumed Roy just forgot that I showed him my Wolverine. I was kind of miffed about the whole thing, but it seemed kind of pointless to carry it on. I never did like Wolverine for a long time…

And with Len Wein:

SANDERSON: Now, before the new X-Men series began, you already created Wolverine. Was that done with the intention of putting him in the book later?
WEIN: Mm-hm. If it came to be. I figured I'd cover myself on the off chance we did do a new book, and we needed other characters. Actually, the name "Wolverine" was Roy's suggestion: he suggested "Do a character called Wolverine," gave him to me to create for the Hulk, and most of the rest of the details as to who and what he was were my own. So I decided to make him a teen-age mutant, to be one of the new X-Men if it came to pass.

Roy Thomas was then Editor-In-Chief at Marvel, but such contributions are not normally considered in the creator credits stakes. And Chase, with the help of her husband Craig and their friend Carr D'Angelo had been doing some digging.

"Roy and his manager John Cimino submitted a piece to CBR for their online publication, which they published on Feb 9, 2019. (It looks like the "article" submitted to CBR was a piece JC wrote on his blog early in 2018, only a few months after Len died. It's entitled Weapon X-plained: Wolverine Co-Creator Reveals the Truth Behind His Origin,  It might be worth noting this was done four years after Herb died, two years after Len died, and three months after Stan died. In this piece Roy finally "uncovers" the real story of Wolverine's origin, in which he says he co-created the character. As Roy says in that article, he suggested the name and asked that the character be Canadian – but is that creator-ship? Carr said he spoke with Christine about the article when it came out, but she wasn't concerned at the time. She was grieving.

"Even if Roy could have contributed as much to the character as Len – should he get the credit? Does contributing a name and a country of origin mean he deserves a percentage of the creator equity, when he was on staff at the company? Does Marvel now deserve a split, as they would then be co-creators, having hired the editor now taking credit? Marvel is the character's owner, in this particular case and in most cases, 100%. Character equity in no way implies that creators own any part of a character.

"At the time of Wolverine's creation in 1974, Roy Thomas was then Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics, a role I once held, although not quite so significantly. Roy was only the second EIC Marvel ever had, having taken over for Stan the Man Lee himself. So one might say it was in his capacity as an editor that he suggested to writer Len the name Wolverine, and then spectated as Len created the character description, back story, powers, speaking mannerisms and, along with artist John Romita Sr created his look. Then my old pal Herb Trimpe brought Wolverine to life, with body language and physical mannerisms, starting in Hulk #180.

"I'm not at all implying Roy didn't contribute to Wolverine's creation, although we'll never know how greatly he deserved it, especially when this article in CBR was published a little over a year after Len's death. Does Roy, having done all of this as Editor-in-Chief, have any contractual claim to the character, or just bragging rights? Had I been involved in the same way with the creation of any characters back in my days as either editor or EIC, it would most certainly have not netted me any credit, nor would I have wanted any. Working with creators is part of the job of being a Marvel employee. "It's not like these characters are being co-created by Roy; it's like they're being created by Marvel," Carr said as we were digging incredulously through doctored online entries, across Wikipedia and more.

"A side note from Carr: "I looked up Wiki for the Punisher, and apparently Stan Lee takes credit for replacing Gerry's name The Assassin (inspired by Executioner) with The Punisher (apparently Galactus had robots called Punishers in Fantastic Four #49). But even Stan never took credit for co-creating the Punisher – because editing/developing/guiding is the job of the Editor."

"Also from Carr: "There's another piece that is interesting because it points out that Roy's "contribution" of nationality had already been pitched by a fan in FOOM [Marvel's fan magazine, "Friends of Ol' Marvel"]. And Dave Cockrum had claims that his character presentations/designs that led to the New X-Men included a Wolverine character. (Always presumed to be based on some of his Legion ideas such as the new costume he planned for Timber Wolf, which he did get Wolverine into for his last issue–107?–with the LSH-inspired Imperial Guard.):

"Basically, the point is that a name and nationality doesn't mean you created a character. If that was so, we all have lists of thousands of characters/names we created in our files. So now, besides "Who Created Wolverine?," I have a new question: "Can Len Wein, John Romita Sr and MARVEL have created Wolverine?"

"Here's a TIMELINE of just a few key Wolverine changes:

• February 26, 2024 David Bogart called Christine Valada to tell her about the irrevocable change, making Roy co-creator on the next Wolverine movie.
• March 4, 2024: Len Wein's wikipedia page changes so that Roy Thomas appears as co-creator: "Wein co-created Wolverine with Roy Thomas, and artist John Romita Sr. during his run on The Incredible Hulk."
• March 16, 2024: The following was added to Roy Thomas's Wikipedia page: "Among the characters he co-created are Wolverine, Vision, Doc Samson, Carol Danvers, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Ultra, Yellowjacket, Defenders, Man-Thing, Ron Sonja, Morbius, Ghost Rider, Squadron Supreme, Invaders, Black Knight (Dawn Whitman), Nighthawk, Havoc, Banshee, Sunfire, Thunder, Arkon, Killraven, Wendell Vaughn, Red Wolf, Red Guardian, Daimon Hellstrom, Brother Voodoo and Valkyrie."
• March 19, 2024: Wolverine Wikipedia change is made: Created by: Roy Thomas, Len Wein, John Romita Sr. "He was created by Marvel editor-in-chief Roy Thomas, writer Len Wein, and Marvel art director John Romita Sr."

Wikipedia amends that leave a history

Since then it seems that the Wikipedia page has been bumped further, now making Roy Thomas the lead creator, saying "He was created by Marvel editor-in-chief Roy Thomas,[2] writer Len Wein,[3] and Marvel art director John Romita Sr. Romita designed the character's costume, but the character was first drawn for publication by Herb Trimpe."

Wikipedia links to an article in the Boston Globe from 2017 for this claim, about one twelve-year-old Bryn Cimino which says "Cimino, an eighth-grader at Carlisle Public School, had her artwork chosen to appear in the November issue of Alter Ego magazine, a comic fan magazine edited by Roy Thomas, the first successor to Stan Lee as editor in chief of Marvel Magazine in 1972, and the co-creator of many beloved superheroes, including Wolverine and Iron Fist." Which just states that her father John Cimino "works as a promoter and agent for writers and artists, including Thomas." It's a PR puff piece of an article, and the creator claim should probably be read in that context.

The Wikipedia article seems to be going back and forth on this, with editor "Jellyfish" stating "Even if Roy Thomas requested the creation of a character named "Wolverine" he did NOT co-create the character that millions of fans love to this day. That work was started by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum and continued by legions of creators over the decades since." But the addition began earlier,  in November 2017, and was batted around by editors until the Boston Globe article ran and was cited as evidence. Chase continues;

"Any thoughts, people? I'm no Marvel historian, and have never claimed to be. Carr, Craig and I were wracking our brains Sunday night trying to figure out who else might have been around at the time who would know the answer to all of our questions. Please, weigh in to this discussion, and If I'm way off base, tell me so. In which case, I'll be taking credit for Danny Ketch, Ghost Rider. Once writer Howard Mackie and artist Javier Saltares are dead, of course. And maybe after my former assistant editor Christian Cooper's death as well, for good measure."

In a 2021 post by John Cimino, Roy Thomas' manager, he wrote;

"What most people don't realize is that when Roy Thomas thought up the character Wolverine for INCREDIBLE HULK #180 (1974) to get more Canadian readers, fellow co-creator Len Wein wanted Wolverine's famous claws (which Johnny Romita designed) to be made out of Adamantium. And who created that unbreakable Marvel metal? Well, our boy Roy of course a few years earlier in AVENGERS #66 (1969)."

Bleeding Cool has been happy to run such from him in the past, and probably will do in the future. We didn't run the Wolverine story though.

Christine Valada replied regarding the Facebook post, saying "Thank you, Bobbie. I reached out to Glynis [Len Wein's first wife]. She's as surprised by what has been done as I am. She was there and only remembers Len saying what I remember: Canadian accent because Len had been doing accents in Brother Voodoo (most assuredly NOT created by Roy Thomas) and the name Wolverine, which other sources suggest Roy got from a fan submission. Len's written and oral descriptions of how the character came about differ substantially from Roy's self-aggrandizement and did not change in all the time I knew him or in the time Glynis knew him."

We ran the Ben Cooper thing because it was a fun detail, not because it might change Marvel Comics' credits.

Mark Waid adds "Roy gets some minor bragging rights and that's it, full-stop, no argument. He deserves zero financial equity, zero, because he was a paid staffer at the time, and brainstorming and guidance like this is AN EDITOR'S F-CKING JOB. Roy knows this, but he's turned into a ghoul late in life, snapping up "co-creator" credits as soon as all other involved parties are dead and no longer able to contest his claims. (See also: Gary Friedrich.) It's pathetic and ironic that, in scrambling for as much credit as he can possibly find, Roy's guaranteeing that his legacy will be all about stolen valor."

Putting it in the journal

Last month, the Comics Journal took on the situation which covered much of this material, They also spoke to Christine Valada who told them of her objections to the addition of Roy Thomas's co-creauor credit "because it's a f-cking lie… I probably shouldn't say 'f-cking.' That's not really ladylike for a 72-year-old woman… It is a lie that is being given credence. And to me, it's trade defamation. … You know that trade defamation and regular defamation have different standards. They are attacking him as a creator, as a writer. And you know they're also attacking him as an individual."

While talking to Roy Thomas, he told them "I felt the credit was right… I just felt that if guys like Jim Starlin, and Steve Englehart, and others were given individual credits on movies for characters they created in Guardians of the Galaxy – including characters like Mantis that bear almost no resemblance, as Steve has said, to anything he actually did with the character – I felt like it was time to ask about [credit], because I'd always felt I deserved it. … It didn't make any difference because I wasn't after any money or anything like that. It was just a matter of, I would like to see it formalized that Len, John, and me are all given credit."

The article goes into much more detail and uncovers many additional documents. But Roy's own magazine, published with John Cimino, Alter-Ego #194 is published in July… next year, and it has Wolverine on the cover with Roy. I expect the issue will be addressed, again, this time next year.

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